Great discussion. You and Greg mentioned something I've been thinking about. The media did a lot of pearl-clutching over the mayor who dropped an F-bomb. But ICE regularly yells, "Get out of the fucking car!" or "Get on the fucking ground," and does so as their initial statement. That's not how normal law enforcement does things. The first statement would be something like, "Please step out of the car, ma'm." If we're going to challenge the Democratic mayor on his language, there should be at least equal focus on how ICE speaks to people, including citizens.
Did you see Trump say 'Fuck you' and give the middle finger to the worker at the Ford Plant in Detroit who yelled 'Pedophile Protector". Evidently Ford is trying to fire the worker -- I hope the Union goes on strike against the worker's possible dismissal. You can see the video on the Meidas Network Podcast. Trump will shit on us all -- he proved that. He will fuck us all, too.
I guess Joe Rogan wants to pretend this wasn't completely 100% predictable. Whatever. I'm glad at least now he is speaking out. I think it will have some impact on younger male voters.
Having said that though, it is an opportunity, and the Democrats need to give those voters a reason to support Democrats.
The Joe Rogan remark about the Gestapo was the second part of a both-sidesing: In the first part he asserted as fact that there had been a "program" by which immigrants had been settled in places so that Democrats could gain votes and that the ICE deployment was an effort to undo that unlawful program, which Rogan said needed to be done. It seemed less like he had gotten religion and more like he could tell there was rising unease with ICE tactics and he wanted to acknowledge it without undermining the legitimacy of ICE's mission (interestingly, nothing to do with fraud) in Minnesota.
So Greg and all those news organizations misinterpreted these remarks, and he didn't actually compare ICE to the gestapo? I dont really understand what you are arguing here.
In general, like with MTG, when important Trump supporters break from the regime, even a little bit, it weakens him. And that is the goal - to make him weaker.
Thank you Greg -- Listen to @tadstoermer Resist! Heather Cox Richardson. Every Dem Senator & MoC (learned something!) & all of us -- every day -- over & over needs to be OUTRAGED by what is happening in Minnesota. As the speaker today says -- the Trump regime is sending -- heavily armed militia against Americans to hurt and harm them every day -- the stories from Minneapolis are heart breaking -- Chicago, NYC, LA -- wholly unaccountable to the law. What the Trump regime is doing is UNLAWFUL -- regardless of what they say. We have to stop pretending that we can 'play nice' by the rule of law that no longer exists. Who will they come for next???? With the billions & billions at their disposal...
If I may note that the Civil Right legislation of 1964-5 triggered the rise of deep racism that searched madly for excuses, at roughly the same time that corporate psychopaths were too frustrated with the hamstringing of their autocratic prerogatives and began the buying up of influence sources (Lewis Powell memo: university chairs, talk radio, newspapers and new mass media), and looked for scapegoats to absorb their inability to formulate an American agenda. Those combined to forge the Reagan agenda, the dirty tricks, all supported by the neoliberal infestation of government and its destruction of democratic institutions. The economic depredations that have led to re-colonizing America and the now-dire state of working families have been conjoined with the deeply racist energies of Scottish borderland incorrigibles who fled from James II to Appalachia. The neoliberal hollowing out of democracy (see Wendy Brown) is now transferred to convenient and totally irrational racist prejudices. The Incorrigibles have been recycled from the Klan to ICE.
Powerful interview with the great Greg Sargent. He is terrific and thank you for giving him time. I personally think it is smart that Democrats DON'T fall into the ABOLISH ICE trap even tho Greg kind of poo pooed such thoughts. And it is a trap, just as Defund the Police was, whether or not Democrats fully embraced it as I see it. In Sargent's new piece today in TNR, he links to data that shows ABOLISH ICE is underwater. It's a losing strategy. We have a unique moment to paint this Administration as unAmerican and a threat to the American way of life by unleashing ICE like this. Focus there, in my opinion. This is happening because of Trump, Vance and Noem. Make them the focus. Vote for Democrats who will constrain them and maintain the American way of life. My $02.
Unfortunately, slogans matter. If you have to spend time explaining a slogan, you've lost the battle. "Defund" and "Abolish" are terms that can easily be changed to something else. "Reign" In ICE, "Make ICE Lawful Again"? I don't know. I'm not a writer. Something simple that gets the message across without using words that can be read in a negative manner. JMO
I am sorry. I didn't mean to suggest that anyone in a position of power should do this. Rather, I was just expressing my opinion. Lord knows, I am aware no politician or strategist cares what I think. But I am telling you, with respect, slogans do matter. I am Mexican and I am shocked at what I hear in my circles sometimes from people who grew up hardcore liberals. Most still vote Dem but boy they repeat talking points as facts. I had to explain over and over that Defund the Police did not mean taking away all funding from them. Again, my apologies for coming across as directing anyone to do anything.
I don't agree with this. In the Economist-YouGov poll from yesterday abolish ICE is 46-43. The point we discussed is that what is happening now is not like 2020-2024. It is a new day, new realities, new understandings. We should not be quibbling over how we describe their fascism right now but forcefully calling it out. Choosing this moment to scold Dems rather than encourage bravery is wrong on ever level.
With respect, I disagree with your disagreement. I think there is opportunity to go for the bigger framing here. Call out ICE, no question. But the blame resides above individual officers, as I see it.Trump, Miller, Noem should be target---they created this---and their vision of America. I'll say again that I believe Abolish Ice is a trap we should avoid while fighting these monsters.
This interview was heartening to a Minnesotan in the midst of this crap. I would just say that international law is not based on morality, but on reciprocity. Reciprocity is the most important principle. So no one should be hesitant to say that if the US fails to respect the law, other states will as well. And sometimes when a state feels it is dominant and has the advantage, it finds that is not the case. Look at Russia and Ukraine as one example. The US kidnaps then other states will do so. That is not a world we wanted post WWII and it can’t be today.
Along with making our overarching message “take back the rule of law”, why is no one actually describing trump as a full-on traitor. His conduct, by any description has been treasonous to the country and its citizens. We shouldn’t just be patriots, we should be patriots who want to kick out a traitor.
Thank you, Deborah— so busy trying to keep up with the fire hose of news and protest that I miss some. Thank you for being a founding member—I would if I could.
I've been thinking that for a substantial chunk of America, the murder of a pretty white mother driving her car after dropping her kid off at school is like Pearl Harbor. We don't want to think that her race and gender and motherhood matter that much, but to all those who've been on the sidelines for the last year, it absolutely does.
Excellent food for though -- these are not normal times. Greg Sargant in his talk today "Any Democrat who's not willing to basically say that if you want to come for my people, you come through me, shouldn't be in public service anymore. step aside and let someone else take over who is willing to do that."
Think of violence as a distraction from what is truly scaring Dolos. He is AFRAID of what any Epstein-related information might reveal about him. Dolos is now an unregulated person (as seen at a recent visit to a Ford plant): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmKDxHuZdY.
ON REPEAT AGAIN BECAUSE IT SEEMS THAT MANY AUTHORITARIAN WANNABES SEEM TO HAVE SIGNIFICANT ISSUES WITH POSSIBLE SEXUAL SCANDALS INVOLVING YOUNG WOMEN. THEY USUALLY CHOOSE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM WITH EXTREME VIOLENCE. IT WAS HIS (I.E. A.H.’s) GUN AFTER ALL…
Since the days when his parents placed him at the New York Military Academy, Dolos has always been on the highly aggressive spectrum. For example, he did give his second-grade music teacher a black eye without much explanation, and he, before puberty, threw stones at an infant. Per Professor Dan McAdams, certain personality traits persist: https://www.npr.org/2025/11/20/nx-s1-5615190/trump-democrats-military-video-seditious. Curious, Dolos, being an “extreme patriot,” chose not to serve as a young man; the military could have been an excellent channel for his aggression.
THIS IS NOT THE TIME FOR STENOGRAPHERS IN PRESS ROOMS!!
Per Don Lemon, the former CNN Primetime host, many in the mainstream news media have been cowed by Dolos and now admit (privately) that they are no longer fit for purpose (timestamp - 41:01): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRpQUWbbL3c . He is now a successful, INDEPENDENT journalist. Lemon seems to be freer in his approach.
The LA Times and Washington Post should RELEASE their original endorsements of VP Harris from 2024. Their previous observations might prove highly insightful for the present moment. Agreed?
To better understand Dolos, the malignant narcissist, please watch an old “Twilight Zone” episode, “It’s a Good Life” (featuring an all-powerful and malevolent 6-year-old): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDWeGYuzgn8ZaBMTPPuQUDYNI37uXR696 . Think about all authoritarians as incompletely formed children— let alone adults. I remembered this episode after a citation by Tom Nichols of The Atlantic. [edit - 9_8_25: missing paragraph]
Here are Professor Barbara Walter’s five suggestions for fighting authoritarianism:
As the amazing Extremism specialist, Dr. Julia Ebner, has shared, once people have any interest in anything about National Socialism (beyond the purely academic/historical research), bad things begin to happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUmeyEh-WxY&list=TLPQMDQwNTIwMjXguGg818G1fg . Previously, I’ve shared that some power players in the Republican/MAGA party have had a deep interest in CARL SCHMITT, the legal philosopher of National Socialism, and now seen as the apologist for the “Night of Long Knives”. To better understand Schmitt’s intellectual role in the EXTRAJUDICIAL activities of the Third Reich in their rise to power, please take a look at this document on the “Night of Long Knives”: https://sci-hub.st/10.1080/00168890.2012.675795 .
In the early 30s, when A.H. was about to be embroiled in a sex/murder scandal relative to the “suicide” of his 23-year-old niece (OK, half-niece) with his own gun, an enterprising journalist was about to drop a “bombshell” tell-all when his organization was attacked by “Brown Shirts” and his information was destroyed. The journalist was subsequently arrested and, in a matter of months, was later killed during the “Night of Long Knives” in 1934. So, Vanity Fair did an extensive piece on this lesser-known history of A.H. (it is a good and long read): https://www.vanityfair.com/news/1992/04/hitlers-doomed-angel .
With the recent revelations around Dolos and Epstein, it seems that authoritarians have difficulty managing sexual scandals within societal norms. Although MAGA might have problems with history, even recent history (i.e. revisiting January 6, 2021)— it is important to remember the truth (or the best approximation). For more on Epstein and Dolos, the Daily Beast has an excellent new podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC6OvXtVYso&list=PLC3I8Rb5dhRAGpR3tKxCq5TMX2WInOksz .
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST (via nonviolence).
P.S.: Do the following now! FIRST, TEACH CIVICS. Second, register voters. THIRD, TEACH CIVICS. Rinse. Repeat.
We need to take back the definition of who we are.
While at the same time holding a mirror to the actions that define who they are. These are their actions, no allegedly or other qualifier needed
Great discussion. You and Greg mentioned something I've been thinking about. The media did a lot of pearl-clutching over the mayor who dropped an F-bomb. But ICE regularly yells, "Get out of the fucking car!" or "Get on the fucking ground," and does so as their initial statement. That's not how normal law enforcement does things. The first statement would be something like, "Please step out of the car, ma'm." If we're going to challenge the Democratic mayor on his language, there should be at least equal focus on how ICE speaks to people, including citizens.
Did you see Trump say 'Fuck you' and give the middle finger to the worker at the Ford Plant in Detroit who yelled 'Pedophile Protector". Evidently Ford is trying to fire the worker -- I hope the Union goes on strike against the worker's possible dismissal. You can see the video on the Meidas Network Podcast. Trump will shit on us all -- he proved that. He will fuck us all, too.
I know! At least he didn't wear a tan suit. That would have been unpresidential. /Snark
Yes yes yes… I have been brought up sharply! I have been sort of rotting…thanks.
I guess Joe Rogan wants to pretend this wasn't completely 100% predictable. Whatever. I'm glad at least now he is speaking out. I think it will have some impact on younger male voters.
Having said that though, it is an opportunity, and the Democrats need to give those voters a reason to support Democrats.
The Joe Rogan remark about the Gestapo was the second part of a both-sidesing: In the first part he asserted as fact that there had been a "program" by which immigrants had been settled in places so that Democrats could gain votes and that the ICE deployment was an effort to undo that unlawful program, which Rogan said needed to be done. It seemed less like he had gotten religion and more like he could tell there was rising unease with ICE tactics and he wanted to acknowledge it without undermining the legitimacy of ICE's mission (interestingly, nothing to do with fraud) in Minnesota.
So Greg and all those news organizations misinterpreted these remarks, and he didn't actually compare ICE to the gestapo? I dont really understand what you are arguing here.
In general, like with MTG, when important Trump supporters break from the regime, even a little bit, it weakens him. And that is the goal - to make him weaker.
Thank you Greg -- Listen to @tadstoermer Resist! Heather Cox Richardson. Every Dem Senator & MoC (learned something!) & all of us -- every day -- over & over needs to be OUTRAGED by what is happening in Minnesota. As the speaker today says -- the Trump regime is sending -- heavily armed militia against Americans to hurt and harm them every day -- the stories from Minneapolis are heart breaking -- Chicago, NYC, LA -- wholly unaccountable to the law. What the Trump regime is doing is UNLAWFUL -- regardless of what they say. We have to stop pretending that we can 'play nice' by the rule of law that no longer exists. Who will they come for next???? With the billions & billions at their disposal...
THANK YOU
Fantastic exchange -- mahalo nui!
If I may note that the Civil Right legislation of 1964-5 triggered the rise of deep racism that searched madly for excuses, at roughly the same time that corporate psychopaths were too frustrated with the hamstringing of their autocratic prerogatives and began the buying up of influence sources (Lewis Powell memo: university chairs, talk radio, newspapers and new mass media), and looked for scapegoats to absorb their inability to formulate an American agenda. Those combined to forge the Reagan agenda, the dirty tricks, all supported by the neoliberal infestation of government and its destruction of democratic institutions. The economic depredations that have led to re-colonizing America and the now-dire state of working families have been conjoined with the deeply racist energies of Scottish borderland incorrigibles who fled from James II to Appalachia. The neoliberal hollowing out of democracy (see Wendy Brown) is now transferred to convenient and totally irrational racist prejudices. The Incorrigibles have been recycled from the Klan to ICE.
Powerful interview with the great Greg Sargent. He is terrific and thank you for giving him time. I personally think it is smart that Democrats DON'T fall into the ABOLISH ICE trap even tho Greg kind of poo pooed such thoughts. And it is a trap, just as Defund the Police was, whether or not Democrats fully embraced it as I see it. In Sargent's new piece today in TNR, he links to data that shows ABOLISH ICE is underwater. It's a losing strategy. We have a unique moment to paint this Administration as unAmerican and a threat to the American way of life by unleashing ICE like this. Focus there, in my opinion. This is happening because of Trump, Vance and Noem. Make them the focus. Vote for Democrats who will constrain them and maintain the American way of life. My $02.
Unfortunately, slogans matter. If you have to spend time explaining a slogan, you've lost the battle. "Defund" and "Abolish" are terms that can easily be changed to something else. "Reign" In ICE, "Make ICE Lawful Again"? I don't know. I'm not a writer. Something simple that gets the message across without using words that can be read in a negative manner. JMO
This is a huge waste of time IMHO. Just call em out and fight. We can worry about the proper slogans later.
I am sorry. I didn't mean to suggest that anyone in a position of power should do this. Rather, I was just expressing my opinion. Lord knows, I am aware no politician or strategist cares what I think. But I am telling you, with respect, slogans do matter. I am Mexican and I am shocked at what I hear in my circles sometimes from people who grew up hardcore liberals. Most still vote Dem but boy they repeat talking points as facts. I had to explain over and over that Defund the Police did not mean taking away all funding from them. Again, my apologies for coming across as directing anyone to do anything.
I don't agree with this. In the Economist-YouGov poll from yesterday abolish ICE is 46-43. The point we discussed is that what is happening now is not like 2020-2024. It is a new day, new realities, new understandings. We should not be quibbling over how we describe their fascism right now but forcefully calling it out. Choosing this moment to scold Dems rather than encourage bravery is wrong on ever level.
With respect, I disagree with your disagreement. I think there is opportunity to go for the bigger framing here. Call out ICE, no question. But the blame resides above individual officers, as I see it.Trump, Miller, Noem should be target---they created this---and their vision of America. I'll say again that I believe Abolish Ice is a trap we should avoid while fighting these monsters.
This interview was heartening to a Minnesotan in the midst of this crap. I would just say that international law is not based on morality, but on reciprocity. Reciprocity is the most important principle. So no one should be hesitant to say that if the US fails to respect the law, other states will as well. And sometimes when a state feels it is dominant and has the advantage, it finds that is not the case. Look at Russia and Ukraine as one example. The US kidnaps then other states will do so. That is not a world we wanted post WWII and it can’t be today.
Stephen Miller was rebuked in the pulpit in Houston, TX last Sunday.
Along with making our overarching message “take back the rule of law”, why is no one actually describing trump as a full-on traitor. His conduct, by any description has been treasonous to the country and its citizens. We shouldn’t just be patriots, we should be patriots who want to kick out a traitor.
https://www.hopiumchronicles.com/p/trump-is-a-rapist-fraudster-traitor
https://www.hopiumchronicles.com/p/proud-of-all-of-you
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/15/opinion/trump-russia-investigation-putin.html
and it is all over BlueSky, etc.
Thank you, Deborah— so busy trying to keep up with the fire hose of news and protest that I miss some. Thank you for being a founding member—I would if I could.
I've been thinking that for a substantial chunk of America, the murder of a pretty white mother driving her car after dropping her kid off at school is like Pearl Harbor. We don't want to think that her race and gender and motherhood matter that much, but to all those who've been on the sidelines for the last year, it absolutely does.
Excellent food for though -- these are not normal times. Greg Sargant in his talk today "Any Democrat who's not willing to basically say that if you want to come for my people, you come through me, shouldn't be in public service anymore. step aside and let someone else take over who is willing to do that."
Think of violence as a distraction from what is truly scaring Dolos. He is AFRAID of what any Epstein-related information might reveal about him. Dolos is now an unregulated person (as seen at a recent visit to a Ford plant): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmKDxHuZdY.
DEMOCRATS must understand that what can be called the EPSTEIN SYNDICATE is likely STILL IN OPERATION at some lower level of intensity. There were four women who received special dispensation during the 2008 “Sweetheart” deal for Epstein: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/epstein-files-these-4-women-might-know-if-there-s-a-client-list/ar-AA1SQy03. Here is an older YouTube channel from one of the “Epstein 4”: https://www.youtube.com/@Aviloop.
As you use your intuition, what are the young women selling from the YouTube site in question? To answer the question, note that a Democrat just took a commission seat in Florida basically because the incumbent Republican had to step down because of an online solicitation to a minor: https://www.wpbf.com/article/florida-fort-pierce-commissioner-james-taylor-arrested-child-exploitation-bond-360k/65510626 and https://www.wptv.com/news/region-st-lucie-county/fort-pierce/chris-dzadovsky-wins-fort-pierce-commission-seat-by-31-votes-flips-control-to-democrats. A large number of people will probably be surprised and saddened by the specific, noteworthy individuals who may have “bought” the services.
EPSTEIN IS NOW. EPSTEIN IS NOW. EPSTEIN IS NOW.
NIGHT OF LONG KNIVES. NIGHT OF LONG KNIVES.
ON REPEAT AGAIN BECAUSE IT SEEMS THAT MANY AUTHORITARIAN WANNABES SEEM TO HAVE SIGNIFICANT ISSUES WITH POSSIBLE SEXUAL SCANDALS INVOLVING YOUNG WOMEN. THEY USUALLY CHOOSE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM WITH EXTREME VIOLENCE. IT WAS HIS (I.E. A.H.’s) GUN AFTER ALL…
Since the days when his parents placed him at the New York Military Academy, Dolos has always been on the highly aggressive spectrum. For example, he did give his second-grade music teacher a black eye without much explanation, and he, before puberty, threw stones at an infant. Per Professor Dan McAdams, certain personality traits persist: https://www.npr.org/2025/11/20/nx-s1-5615190/trump-democrats-military-video-seditious. Curious, Dolos, being an “extreme patriot,” chose not to serve as a young man; the military could have been an excellent channel for his aggression.
THIS IS NOT THE TIME FOR STENOGRAPHERS IN PRESS ROOMS!!
Per Don Lemon, the former CNN Primetime host, many in the mainstream news media have been cowed by Dolos and now admit (privately) that they are no longer fit for purpose (timestamp - 41:01): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRpQUWbbL3c . He is now a successful, INDEPENDENT journalist. Lemon seems to be freer in his approach.
The LA Times and Washington Post should RELEASE their original endorsements of VP Harris from 2024. Their previous observations might prove highly insightful for the present moment. Agreed?
Would you believe that Dolos actually lied about not sending the birthday card to Epstein: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jc6HqLSYNQ ? I guess that water is wet.
To better understand Dolos, the malignant narcissist, please watch an old “Twilight Zone” episode, “It’s a Good Life” (featuring an all-powerful and malevolent 6-year-old): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDWeGYuzgn8ZaBMTPPuQUDYNI37uXR696 . Think about all authoritarians as incompletely formed children— let alone adults. I remembered this episode after a citation by Tom Nichols of The Atlantic. [edit - 9_8_25: missing paragraph]
Here are Professor Barbara Walter’s five suggestions for fighting authoritarianism:
https://barbarafwalter.substack.com/p/the-hidden-battle-that-decides-whether .
https://barbarafwalter.substack.com/p/authoritarian-power-is-mostly-performance .
https://barbarafwalter.substack.com/p/how-dictators-lose-control-of-the .
https://barbarafwalter.substack.com/p/4-storms-and-streets-break-regimes .
https://barbarafwalter.substack.com/p/5-how-to-break-a-tyrant .
Folks:
As the amazing Extremism specialist, Dr. Julia Ebner, has shared, once people have any interest in anything about National Socialism (beyond the purely academic/historical research), bad things begin to happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUmeyEh-WxY&list=TLPQMDQwNTIwMjXguGg818G1fg . Previously, I’ve shared that some power players in the Republican/MAGA party have had a deep interest in CARL SCHMITT, the legal philosopher of National Socialism, and now seen as the apologist for the “Night of Long Knives”. To better understand Schmitt’s intellectual role in the EXTRAJUDICIAL activities of the Third Reich in their rise to power, please take a look at this document on the “Night of Long Knives”: https://sci-hub.st/10.1080/00168890.2012.675795 .
Supposedly, Sieg Heel used some of Schmitt’s texts in a course at Stanford that he taught. It seems that some public intellectuals, i.e. HCR, much brighter than myself, have also noticed the influence of Schmitt in this current moment for the American Right: https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/september-8-2025 . This validation of a National Socialist philosopher can often receive a tangential but still referential notice by some “mainline” Conservative organizations: https://www.heritage.org/conservatism/commentary/whats-old-new-the-right-against-god-and-man .
In the early 30s, when A.H. was about to be embroiled in a sex/murder scandal relative to the “suicide” of his 23-year-old niece (OK, half-niece) with his own gun, an enterprising journalist was about to drop a “bombshell” tell-all when his organization was attacked by “Brown Shirts” and his information was destroyed. The journalist was subsequently arrested and, in a matter of months, was later killed during the “Night of Long Knives” in 1934. So, Vanity Fair did an extensive piece on this lesser-known history of A.H. (it is a good and long read): https://www.vanityfair.com/news/1992/04/hitlers-doomed-angel .
With the recent revelations around Dolos and Epstein, it seems that authoritarians have difficulty managing sexual scandals within societal norms. Although MAGA might have problems with history, even recent history (i.e. revisiting January 6, 2021)— it is important to remember the truth (or the best approximation). For more on Epstein and Dolos, the Daily Beast has an excellent new podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC6OvXtVYso&list=PLC3I8Rb5dhRAGpR3tKxCq5TMX2WInOksz .
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST (via nonviolence).
P.S.: Do the following now! FIRST, TEACH CIVICS. Second, register voters. THIRD, TEACH CIVICS. Rinse. Repeat.
When I see a video like this one, I wonder, "What more can I do?"
I don't know that I have an answer to that question right now.