Gwynne, we try very hard here to embrace the rainbow, allowing for the differences in our party to flourish, to welcome debate not run from it, as we are a party of Agers, Spanbergers, AOC, and many, many more. We don't attack other Democrats here. We seek to learn, to understand, and lift people up and not tear them down. Your comment thus is not welcome as written, and not in the spirit of what we try to do here every day. If folks like Ager are not welcome in your family than we will be a permanent minority the rest of all of our lifetimes.
You telling candidates who are running and winning in swing districts, flipping red seats, that you know better than they on how to win is something....perhaps listen and learn. Expand your horizons. We live in a big diverse country are working to build something new, together. And there is no censorship here Gwynne. My god please take a break and head somewhere else today. We are working hard here to win this election. What we do here every day.
And the reason "socialism" has become an issue is because of a series of now public, deleted posts from Avila Chevalier which you can read about here - https://www.cnn.com/2026/06/29/politics/darializa-avila-chevalier-communism-tweets. This is the second batch of deleted posts that have been uncovered. The first came just before the election. These were found on Monday. Here's the first graph from the CNN story:
"Darializa Avila Chevalier, the Democratic congressional nominee endorsed by New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani, who ousted longtime Rep. Adriano Espaillat in Tuesday’s primary, maintained a since-deleted Twitter account with repeated sympathetic references to communism, Marxist ideology and Soviet figures, including Vladimir Lenin."
You crapped all over one of our best candidates in the country, accused me of censorship - take responsibility for your words and sentiments please and stop fighting with me and others here. All of my comments here today have been respectful, and I've taken the time to engage, explain, bring you and others along. If folks like Jamie Ager are a problem for you this may not be the right community for you. Thank you for your good works and service but please stop fighting. It just isn't what we do here.
Jamie Ager is not the status quo. Chuck Edwards, the incumbent Trump supporter under investigation by House Ethics for sexual harassment, is the status quo.
Dear Gwynn, I grew up and spent the first 50 years of my life in the San Francisco Bay Area, most of it in Berkeley. I had the honor of voting for the great Ron Dellums - “Conscience of the House” in the late 60s & 1970s, Barbara Boxer and other pioneering Bay Area candidates. I could not understand how anyone could vote for anyone else but people like that until I drove across country from West Virginia to Berkeley in 2007. Driving across the vast Great Plains, and living for over 10 years in Indiana taught me a great deal about people who live so far from either coast. For the last 20 years I have found myself living in West Virginia, Indiana and am now in the one purple district in the otherwise blue New Mexico. Coming back to visit my fiercely progressive mother who spent all of her 95 years in the Bay Area was enlightening. She seemed so sheltered to me after living elsewhere. Make no mistake, I definitely feel most at home in the Bay Area, however, I have come to appreciate and respect that there are people in different parts the country who deeply believe in the common good, but have not had the multicultural exposure, or the education, or whatever it is that creates the kind of mindset that we find in places like New York City, Bay Area and a few other places. Certain words we toss around can be scary for people outside those bubbles. When I saw that certain D candidates had signed that pledge, I assumed that they were doing that so they could get elected in their purpleish districts - to counteract R attack ads that will surely come. I did not feel think less of them. I felt as though they know who their voters are better than anyone outside of their district ever could. The Democratic Party has to be a very big tent or we will forever be in the situation we have found ourselves in since 2016 when my most progressive friends refused to vote for Hillary Clinton. I hope you will accept what I’ve said here as my way of reaching out to you, asking to give us all a chance to be part of a larger and more flexible community. It is a very scary time in the world. We need to stick together and understand that we can’t possibly all agree on everything, and be open to the fact that there are people who are afraid of ideas and words that feel unfamiliar, but will pull off the road to help you if your car breaks down, as I experienced in rural Indiana.
Was it really full throated. Everything wrong in the US today can be found in a socialist system. Having leaders working for citizens is a pretty good vaccination against tyranny from any direction. Benevolent socialism (Nordics?) is often built on similar infrastructure as is capitalism.
I also want to say that pissing on this effort to raise money today and stay focused on mission is self-indulgent, and unwelcome. Take a deep breath next time before spewing stuff like this next time.
Thanks for posting the pledge. I worry so much more about the focus of the pledge as a whole and not two terms, used once, that are contested (capitalism and socialism). Real people have overlapping interests. But even so they have different reactions to those 2 words. I taught economics for decades without needing those two words. If a student insisted, we had to arrive at an agreement on definitions. We couldn't start with one is inherently bad anymore than one was inherently good. Context, accountability, regulation, oversight matter. Either can be corrupted by those in charge.
thanks for posting the link to it- most of the time we hear about things through someone's opinion of them on social media but don't actually see the source- I have to admit that was the case for me in this situation- I don't really understand why the word socialist has such a charged power- it's probably pretty complex- the thing is, I actually think that the people who signed this pledge are looking to do exactly the same things that the democratic socialists are trying to do- actually deliver by solving problems for working people, small business folks, etc- we all want a government that works for the people and not just the billionaires/trillionaire- a government that is not overrun by corruption, but is accountable to the people - filled with folks committed to serving the interests of the American people and not just their own self interests- what I've been so impressed by in your candidate interviews is that through line of insight into problems, commitment to public service, and problem solving moxie. I just hope that we on BOTH sides of the democratic socialist/capitalist debate within the Democratic Party can see that we need each other and work hard to build a coalition that can successfully push back the MAGA coalition and build something truly transformative - maybe you, Simon, can discuss what that work of coming together might look like. thanks for you and your team's work
Agreed. I don't read full throated capitalism NOR full throated socialism. Getting things done that citizens need should be the focus. Not hate. Not scapegoats. Yes stop abuse of power, especially not for personal glorification, which can happen under either system.
Does everyone understand that there are only a handful of Members of Congress openly affiliated with DSA? DSA is not progressive. The progressive caucus endorsed Espaillat in NY13. We will work to help everyone understand these distinctions and this debate in the weeks ahead.
I'll speak for myself and say I am not familiar with the distinctions. I'm recently retired and new to paying careful attention to these things (I only recently discovered Hopium). I will look more carefully into it now that you've pointed that out- but It seems like this sore spot around democratic socialism/capitalism came from folks who were upset that democratic socialists won under the banner of the Democratic Party, and they seem to be trying to say that they don't belong in the Democratic Party because of the word 'socialist'. What I have noticed though, is that each district/state across the country has its own idiosyncratic features and no one type of candidate could be a fit for every place. Obviously the folks recently nominated via NY primaries had a message that resonated with that particular electorate, and I think we should respect that and not fight it, especially since it seems to me, the through line all across the country - wherever the candidates fall in the moderate to progressive spectrum- is integrity, public service over personal gain, anti- corruption, problem solving for the people, etc. I am personally more than ok with supporting moderates, progressives, and even democratic socialists under the same tent as long as the focus is on rebuilding a government accountable to the people that is focused on solving problems and improving the quality of life for the most people- again I appreciate your work and I'm sure I have a lot to learn
Just thought I'd drop this here- it's a link to a discussion yesterday between Anand Ghiridharadas and Noam Scheiber around his recent book, Mutiny, The Rise and Revolt of the College Educated Working Class. Scheiber discusses in some detail his perspective on where the democratic socialist movement is coming from and what it might look like for that part of the left to link up with other elements of the left like traditional labor - it's obvious that there is a tension on the left amongst the different groups that identify as democrats- this discussion on Hopium has touched on it- the question is, are we going to be ready, after the primaries, to link arms with ALL of those who were elected in their districts/states, no matter where they fall on the moderate to progressive spectrum, in order to defeat MAGA, hold accountable and heal from the excesses of the present regime, and work together to solve existential problems while shoring up our democracy? https://the.ink/p/explaining-the-socialist-surge?utm_source=podcast-email&publication_id=70374&post_id=204273231&utm_campaign=email-play-on-substack&utm_content=watch_now_button&r=1m9gvi&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
I looked up which Democrats signed this Promise. I am not familiar with all the Democrats/Candidates who signed the Promise. The ones I am familiar with I really like! Gosh, I have been telling all my Latino peeps about Bobby Pulido. I didn't know him before but some of my peeps knew about him but didn't know he was running. While I might have written the Socialist Subheading a little differently, I understand, or at least I think I understand, why it was put in there. Thank you again for posting the link.
Voters need to be able to make their choices and not some Uber Democrat. If winning in NC means letting your voters know where you stand, that is what he should do. Signing onto someone else's statement (which I have not seen) may be a shortcut, but Western NC is nothing like NYC. Courting Trump supporters is much trickier there. Rent control and public transportation mean less than having FEMA do what it was built to do. Follow his campaign more generally if you want to slam that choice.
I have NC roots and this person seems PERFECT for his district. I like how he and so many others are avoiding much ragging on DJT since we all know the deal. Jamie is that steady guy who knows who he is and comes off as truly patriotic. I feel sorry for him in a way, HAHA, that he'll have to leave his farm for DC!!
BREAKING NEWS! I still can't focus on anything else and could hardly believe my eyes while in the dentists chair (too much novocaine?) reading the LIVE NEWS FEED of the Supreme Court's decision to uphold birthright citizenship. This comes on the eve of the 4th of July and what more fitting affirmation of "We The People” could there be." #gratitude
Thank you for this second interview of United States Senator Ager. I am proud to support Senator Jamie Ager and his platform. https://agerforcongress.com/platform
Simon, Jamie is definitely one of the most down to earth People. He really relates to Western North Carolina-11. He is a great Candidate, and a Winner!
Prior to catching Jamie's Conversation, I was working on what Donations I was going to give. It took awhile, so I decided the fair thing to do was to give All of Our Candidates a Donation.
Winning The House, Winning the House/ Second Wave, Winning the Senate, Graham Plantner and Josh Turek, Winning Ohio and the Hopium Audacious Expansion Fund.
Simon, thanks for this. Ager is a great candidate for NC 11. I grew up in Hendersonville, about half an hour from his farm. I am a Democrat who wants to win elections. Hard for me to comprehend what is so hard to understand about supporting candidates who are a good fit for their districts. Ager is a “dirt-road” Democrat who can win. A more liberal Democrat could not. We need to get beyond the left vs. center, which gets a lot of media attention because it’s an easy story to write.
I could not agree more. Voters choose among those who run. If they are a bad fit (AND are not a bad person...must be vetted) then dont tell them what is good for that voter.. We have lost trust in American voters. I understand why, but I am hoping my own relatives are beginning to see light.
I love the photo of the train he made for the kiddos and pulling it behind his riding lawn mower. What a great guy. I donated to him earlier and donate through the Hopium house candidates. We live in TN, but used to have a cabin in Bryson City and he is the right guy to lead NC-11.
We are headed to Cullowhee Native Plant Conference at WCU next month. July 15-18th. He should stop by on Saturday morning (free day) and talk to folks. Lots of native plant growers from the Asheville, Fairview, and other Western Carolina nurseries.
Honestly one of my favorite candidates. I actually read his fundraising emails. He’s genuine, I really believe he got into this because he wants to help people in his neck of the woods. I also like that he listens to the questions, e.g. the thoughtful one on retail politics Simon asked at about the 4 minute mark - you can see him listening closely. Donated to him through the Hopium link
This is an interesting video from MT that shows Mike Lawler and Russell Vought for the wankers they are. (As if you needed any more proof.)
Raskin gets into a shouting match with Lawler, who reminds me of Satan, and Vought gets a good grilling, only to show what an evil nebish he really is in life (when he's not drafting democracy-destroying manifestos).
Rep Pocan was never on my radar, and I would love to hear from anyone who knows more about him. He did a GREAT job with Vought.
I was only going to watch a few minutes and found myself watching the full 17 minutes. Actually, I couldn't stomach listening to Mike Johnson at the end. I muted him. Thank you for the link.
Jamie Ager’s earnestness is very appealing. Thank you for this interview, Simon. Just donated to his campaign.
I also earlier today donated to Alexander Vindman. I know he is not on the Hopium list, and his chances of prevailing are less than those you selected for the list. But, I support him in gratitude for his courage in testifying about the “perfect” phone call between Trump and Zelensky. And, I’d rather win back the Senate by backing a virtuous candidate such as Vindman than Platner.
Gwynne, we try very hard here to embrace the rainbow, allowing for the differences in our party to flourish, to welcome debate not run from it, as we are a party of Agers, Spanbergers, AOC, and many, many more. We don't attack other Democrats here. We seek to learn, to understand, and lift people up and not tear them down. Your comment thus is not welcome as written, and not in the spirit of what we try to do here every day. If folks like Ager are not welcome in your family than we will be a permanent minority the rest of all of our lifetimes.
You telling candidates who are running and winning in swing districts, flipping red seats, that you know better than they on how to win is something....perhaps listen and learn. Expand your horizons. We live in a big diverse country are working to build something new, together. And there is no censorship here Gwynne. My god please take a break and head somewhere else today. We are working hard here to win this election. What we do here every day.
And the reason "socialism" has become an issue is because of a series of now public, deleted posts from Avila Chevalier which you can read about here - https://www.cnn.com/2026/06/29/politics/darializa-avila-chevalier-communism-tweets. This is the second batch of deleted posts that have been uncovered. The first came just before the election. These were found on Monday. Here's the first graph from the CNN story:
"Darializa Avila Chevalier, the Democratic congressional nominee endorsed by New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani, who ousted longtime Rep. Adriano Espaillat in Tuesday’s primary, maintained a since-deleted Twitter account with repeated sympathetic references to communism, Marxist ideology and Soviet figures, including Vladimir Lenin."
You crapped all over one of our best candidates in the country, accused me of censorship - take responsibility for your words and sentiments please and stop fighting with me and others here. All of my comments here today have been respectful, and I've taken the time to engage, explain, bring you and others along. If folks like Jamie Ager are a problem for you this may not be the right community for you. Thank you for your good works and service but please stop fighting. It just isn't what we do here.
Jamie Ager is not the status quo. Chuck Edwards, the incumbent Trump supporter under investigation by House Ethics for sexual harassment, is the status quo.
You insulted our featured guest AND our Substack author and leader!
One has to act respectfully to earn respect.
Dear Gwynn, I grew up and spent the first 50 years of my life in the San Francisco Bay Area, most of it in Berkeley. I had the honor of voting for the great Ron Dellums - “Conscience of the House” in the late 60s & 1970s, Barbara Boxer and other pioneering Bay Area candidates. I could not understand how anyone could vote for anyone else but people like that until I drove across country from West Virginia to Berkeley in 2007. Driving across the vast Great Plains, and living for over 10 years in Indiana taught me a great deal about people who live so far from either coast. For the last 20 years I have found myself living in West Virginia, Indiana and am now in the one purple district in the otherwise blue New Mexico. Coming back to visit my fiercely progressive mother who spent all of her 95 years in the Bay Area was enlightening. She seemed so sheltered to me after living elsewhere. Make no mistake, I definitely feel most at home in the Bay Area, however, I have come to appreciate and respect that there are people in different parts the country who deeply believe in the common good, but have not had the multicultural exposure, or the education, or whatever it is that creates the kind of mindset that we find in places like New York City, Bay Area and a few other places. Certain words we toss around can be scary for people outside those bubbles. When I saw that certain D candidates had signed that pledge, I assumed that they were doing that so they could get elected in their purpleish districts - to counteract R attack ads that will surely come. I did not feel think less of them. I felt as though they know who their voters are better than anyone outside of their district ever could. The Democratic Party has to be a very big tent or we will forever be in the situation we have found ourselves in since 2016 when my most progressive friends refused to vote for Hillary Clinton. I hope you will accept what I’ve said here as my way of reaching out to you, asking to give us all a chance to be part of a larger and more flexible community. It is a very scary time in the world. We need to stick together and understand that we can’t possibly all agree on everything, and be open to the fact that there are people who are afraid of ideas and words that feel unfamiliar, but will pull off the road to help you if your car breaks down, as I experienced in rural Indiana.
Was it really full throated. Everything wrong in the US today can be found in a socialist system. Having leaders working for citizens is a pretty good vaccination against tyranny from any direction. Benevolent socialism (Nordics?) is often built on similar infrastructure as is capitalism.
I also want to say that pissing on this effort to raise money today and stay focused on mission is self-indulgent, and unwelcome. Take a deep breath next time before spewing stuff like this next time.
Finally, here's the pledge. The idea that this reads like a Republican document is absurd. https://www.thepromisetoamerica.com/
Thanks for posting the pledge. I worry so much more about the focus of the pledge as a whole and not two terms, used once, that are contested (capitalism and socialism). Real people have overlapping interests. But even so they have different reactions to those 2 words. I taught economics for decades without needing those two words. If a student insisted, we had to arrive at an agreement on definitions. We couldn't start with one is inherently bad anymore than one was inherently good. Context, accountability, regulation, oversight matter. Either can be corrupted by those in charge.
thanks for posting the link to it- most of the time we hear about things through someone's opinion of them on social media but don't actually see the source- I have to admit that was the case for me in this situation- I don't really understand why the word socialist has such a charged power- it's probably pretty complex- the thing is, I actually think that the people who signed this pledge are looking to do exactly the same things that the democratic socialists are trying to do- actually deliver by solving problems for working people, small business folks, etc- we all want a government that works for the people and not just the billionaires/trillionaire- a government that is not overrun by corruption, but is accountable to the people - filled with folks committed to serving the interests of the American people and not just their own self interests- what I've been so impressed by in your candidate interviews is that through line of insight into problems, commitment to public service, and problem solving moxie. I just hope that we on BOTH sides of the democratic socialist/capitalist debate within the Democratic Party can see that we need each other and work hard to build a coalition that can successfully push back the MAGA coalition and build something truly transformative - maybe you, Simon, can discuss what that work of coming together might look like. thanks for you and your team's work
Agreed. I don't read full throated capitalism NOR full throated socialism. Getting things done that citizens need should be the focus. Not hate. Not scapegoats. Yes stop abuse of power, especially not for personal glorification, which can happen under either system.
Does everyone understand that there are only a handful of Members of Congress openly affiliated with DSA? DSA is not progressive. The progressive caucus endorsed Espaillat in NY13. We will work to help everyone understand these distinctions and this debate in the weeks ahead.
I'll speak for myself and say I am not familiar with the distinctions. I'm recently retired and new to paying careful attention to these things (I only recently discovered Hopium). I will look more carefully into it now that you've pointed that out- but It seems like this sore spot around democratic socialism/capitalism came from folks who were upset that democratic socialists won under the banner of the Democratic Party, and they seem to be trying to say that they don't belong in the Democratic Party because of the word 'socialist'. What I have noticed though, is that each district/state across the country has its own idiosyncratic features and no one type of candidate could be a fit for every place. Obviously the folks recently nominated via NY primaries had a message that resonated with that particular electorate, and I think we should respect that and not fight it, especially since it seems to me, the through line all across the country - wherever the candidates fall in the moderate to progressive spectrum- is integrity, public service over personal gain, anti- corruption, problem solving for the people, etc. I am personally more than ok with supporting moderates, progressives, and even democratic socialists under the same tent as long as the focus is on rebuilding a government accountable to the people that is focused on solving problems and improving the quality of life for the most people- again I appreciate your work and I'm sure I have a lot to learn
Just thought I'd drop this here- it's a link to a discussion yesterday between Anand Ghiridharadas and Noam Scheiber around his recent book, Mutiny, The Rise and Revolt of the College Educated Working Class. Scheiber discusses in some detail his perspective on where the democratic socialist movement is coming from and what it might look like for that part of the left to link up with other elements of the left like traditional labor - it's obvious that there is a tension on the left amongst the different groups that identify as democrats- this discussion on Hopium has touched on it- the question is, are we going to be ready, after the primaries, to link arms with ALL of those who were elected in their districts/states, no matter where they fall on the moderate to progressive spectrum, in order to defeat MAGA, hold accountable and heal from the excesses of the present regime, and work together to solve existential problems while shoring up our democracy? https://the.ink/p/explaining-the-socialist-surge?utm_source=podcast-email&publication_id=70374&post_id=204273231&utm_campaign=email-play-on-substack&utm_content=watch_now_button&r=1m9gvi&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
Thanks signed it. I'm a former State Executive committee woman. Husband is signing it now and he was Mayor for 6 years.
Thank you for posting the link.
I looked up which Democrats signed this Promise. I am not familiar with all the Democrats/Candidates who signed the Promise. The ones I am familiar with I really like! Gosh, I have been telling all my Latino peeps about Bobby Pulido. I didn't know him before but some of my peeps knew about him but didn't know he was running. While I might have written the Socialist Subheading a little differently, I understand, or at least I think I understand, why it was put in there. Thank you again for posting the link.
Apparently Gwynne has chosen to delete her comments.
Voters need to be able to make their choices and not some Uber Democrat. If winning in NC means letting your voters know where you stand, that is what he should do. Signing onto someone else's statement (which I have not seen) may be a shortcut, but Western NC is nothing like NYC. Courting Trump supporters is much trickier there. Rent control and public transportation mean less than having FEMA do what it was built to do. Follow his campaign more generally if you want to slam that choice.
I have NC roots and this person seems PERFECT for his district. I like how he and so many others are avoiding much ragging on DJT since we all know the deal. Jamie is that steady guy who knows who he is and comes off as truly patriotic. I feel sorry for him in a way, HAHA, that he'll have to leave his farm for DC!!
BREAKING NEWS! I still can't focus on anything else and could hardly believe my eyes while in the dentists chair (too much novocaine?) reading the LIVE NEWS FEED of the Supreme Court's decision to uphold birthright citizenship. This comes on the eve of the 4th of July and what more fitting affirmation of "We The People” could there be." #gratitude
You have early dentist appointments!
Another good candidate. All the new faces make me eager for November
They do inspire!
Thank you for this second interview of United States Senator Ager. I am proud to support Senator Jamie Ager and his platform. https://agerforcongress.com/platform
Simon, Jamie is definitely one of the most down to earth People. He really relates to Western North Carolina-11. He is a great Candidate, and a Winner!
Prior to catching Jamie's Conversation, I was working on what Donations I was going to give. It took awhile, so I decided the fair thing to do was to give All of Our Candidates a Donation.
Winning The House, Winning the House/ Second Wave, Winning the Senate, Graham Plantner and Josh Turek, Winning Ohio and the Hopium Audacious Expansion Fund.
Simon, thanks for this. Ager is a great candidate for NC 11. I grew up in Hendersonville, about half an hour from his farm. I am a Democrat who wants to win elections. Hard for me to comprehend what is so hard to understand about supporting candidates who are a good fit for their districts. Ager is a “dirt-road” Democrat who can win. A more liberal Democrat could not. We need to get beyond the left vs. center, which gets a lot of media attention because it’s an easy story to write.
I could not agree more. Voters choose among those who run. If they are a bad fit (AND are not a bad person...must be vetted) then dont tell them what is good for that voter.. We have lost trust in American voters. I understand why, but I am hoping my own relatives are beginning to see light.
I love the photo of the train he made for the kiddos and pulling it behind his riding lawn mower. What a great guy. I donated to him earlier and donate through the Hopium house candidates. We live in TN, but used to have a cabin in Bryson City and he is the right guy to lead NC-11.
We are headed to Cullowhee Native Plant Conference at WCU next month. July 15-18th. He should stop by on Saturday morning (free day) and talk to folks. Lots of native plant growers from the Asheville, Fairview, and other Western Carolina nurseries.
Honestly one of my favorite candidates. I actually read his fundraising emails. He’s genuine, I really believe he got into this because he wants to help people in his neck of the woods. I also like that he listens to the questions, e.g. the thoughtful one on retail politics Simon asked at about the 4 minute mark - you can see him listening closely. Donated to him through the Hopium link
This is an interesting video from MT that shows Mike Lawler and Russell Vought for the wankers they are. (As if you needed any more proof.)
Raskin gets into a shouting match with Lawler, who reminds me of Satan, and Vought gets a good grilling, only to show what an evil nebish he really is in life (when he's not drafting democracy-destroying manifestos).
Rep Pocan was never on my radar, and I would love to hear from anyone who knows more about him. He did a GREAT job with Vought.
Hopiates represented by Pocan are lucky.
https://youtu.be/eBlQQQ1xT9A?si=R5WGKAAL5mYHVUmA
I was only going to watch a few minutes and found myself watching the full 17 minutes. Actually, I couldn't stomach listening to Mike Johnson at the end. I muted him. Thank you for the link.
Jamie Ager’s earnestness is very appealing. Thank you for this interview, Simon. Just donated to his campaign.
I also earlier today donated to Alexander Vindman. I know he is not on the Hopium list, and his chances of prevailing are less than those you selected for the list. But, I support him in gratitude for his courage in testifying about the “perfect” phone call between Trump and Zelensky. And, I’d rather win back the Senate by backing a virtuous candidate such as Vindman than Platner.
A plant conference is a good antidote. NATIVE plants deserve special consideration. I don't feel that way about people!